Flat Earth Controversy and the Bible

The Bible clearly teaches a flat earth cosmology. I know that many would argue otherwise in their attempts to make the cosmology of the Bible line up with scientific truth, but I think the Bible is very clear in what it says on this subject. My friend Rob Skiba has put together a good web page that in my opinion clearly shows that the Bible was written by authors who believed in a flat earth. They simply had no other model by which to go by. My view is not that the Bible is deliberately teaching flat earth cosmology as “scientific truth”, rather the Bible is a story that lays out the path to salvation, and in telling this story the authors speak from a flat earth understanding. They simply had no other grid from which they could refer to various aspects of creation. Humans need God to find the way to salvation, and that is the purpose of the Bible. On the other hand, humans do not need God to discover for themselves the reality of the world we live in. That is the purpose of science.

The Israelites were a primitive and violent tribe that God chose to begin to reveal Himself to. He wanted to lead them to salvation (and through them EVERYONE) and He was much less worried about teaching them actual science. The ancient Hebrews had essentially the very same cosmology as ancient Sumer, Egypt and Babylon. The Hebrews and the Canaanites had some very serious differences when it came to their understanding of God, and man’s purpose within God’s creation, but they both believed in a flat earth.

The ancient Hebrews understood that earth’s flat disk was surrounded by water on all sides, as well as above and beneath. They believed that the waters above were held back by the firmament: a solid fixed dome in the sky that had windows that were opened by God whenever He decided it was time to answer all of the prayers asking for rain. Abraham’s father was probably a pagan moon-worshiper and much of pagan cosmology became embedded in the Law, in the Psalms, and in the writings of the Prophets. These ancient conceptions of the world also entered into the New Testament, and I think Rob Skiba is absolutely correct when he sums up the issue by saying,

“The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book.”

However, standing behind the controversial issue of the Biblical flat earth is the more important issue of hermeneutics: how do we understand and interpret the Bible? Is the Bible, from front to back, a perfect revelation of the will and character of God? Can we open a page anywhere and find literal truth that we can just draw from the text and apply to our lives today, without regard to context or common sense? Or is the Bible a progressive book, written by authors with differing theologies, sometimes conflicting, but all of them sharing their personal revelations from God with an inspired trajectory and divine end-point in mind? (That end-point being, of course, the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.) If you have followed my writings over the past few years you will know that my view is increasingly tending towards the progressive view of the nature of the Bible.

I think that the flat earth controversy illustrates this issue perfectly, because if you are of the fundamentalist understanding that every story and every word of the Bible must be a perfect revelation of God’s will and character, must be historically accurate and precise, must be in line with modern (true) science, and must not be in conflict with any other passage of Scripture, then to be consistent you must defend the idea that the flat earth theory is true and accurate science!

Well, it’s not, and the Bible is not meant to be interpreted that way. The inspired Scriptures carried a violent primitive tribe out of polygamy and into monogamy. They carried them out of “eye-for-an-eye” and into “turn the other cheek.” They carried them from “never seek for the peace or prosperity of the Ammonite or Moabite” to “love your enemies.” They carried them from a culture of self-righteous vengeance to self-denying forgiveness. And that is just from Old Testament to New Testament! The inspired trajectory of the Scriptures also carries us beyond the letter of the Scriptures themselves! It has led us out of a culture that allowed for the keeping of slaves and into a culture where slavery is clearly immoral. It is also carrying us out of a culture of embedded gender inequality and into a culture where every human being, male or female, should be encouraged to share their gifts, whether preaching, teaching, or prophesying. Gifted and anointed women should not be forbidden from speaking in church simply because of a few sentences found in a letter written by Paul who was speaking into a situation that we do not know the context or dynamics of! Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

The inspired trajectory of Scripture also opens up the potential of human discovery, recognizing that Creation itself is a book written by God, declaring the glory of God, and revealing truth to the sincere seeker that ultimately points to God. Truth revealed in Scripture is fixed. There are no more words to be added to the Canon because it was completed 1900 years ago. However, truth revealed in creation is not fixed. Especially in this day and age we need to be willing to use our common sense in the face of many ongoing revelations about the nature of God’s creation. Sometimes this means that our old understandings of the meaning behind Scripture has to change. Dynamic revelation often impacts what we thought was “fixed” revelation when we come face to face with new information. Galileo helped to shift our understanding towards a heliocentric solar-system. William Wilberforce helped to shift our understanding towards embracing civil rights for all races. In the same way modern breakthroughs in science are impacting our understanding of human origins and our ideas of where we are going.

I am increasingly convinced that the split between “science” and “religion” several hundred years ago was actually necessary, allowing humanity to peer into the mysteries of creation without stubborn religious preconceptions, orchestrated for a final end-of-the-age convergence between science and Holy Spirit-uality! Yes, SCIENCE may perhaps come full-circle and find itself face-to-face with God…

But back to the recently revived controversy of heliocentrism vs flat-earth. Do we accept the flat earth model simply because “the Bible tells me so”? Or do we recognize that the ancient Hebrews were not scientists and God chose to communicate salvation to them in a language that they could understand? Do we dare recognize that the inspired trajectory of Scripture leads us away from flat-earth and into the brave new world of modern scientific discovery?

According to the flat-earth model what is normally considered the North Pole becomes the center of the earth’s fixed and stationary disk. The South Pole, rather than being a point at the bottom of a globe, is instead understood to be the outer rim of this stationary disk. Notice that this totally changes the distances between continents from what we are used to with the global model. Distances are compressed at the center and expanded at the outer rim, supposedly the impassable barrier of Antarctica.

modern+flat+earth+map

Now if flat-earth theory is true then it should be testable. I haven’t spent too much time on this subject but I did come up with a test. According to the global model the circumference of the spherical earth is about 25,000 miles. The flat earth model instead views the outer rim of the disk of the earth as having a circumference of 25,000 miles. This would mean that pairs of cities that exist on parallel longitudes would vary in distances apart based on their distance from the North Pole (the center). For example, consider Rome and Tokyo (in the Northern Hemisphere) and Johannesburg and Sydney (in the Southern Hemisphere). They are paired on roughly parallel longitudes, but in the flat earth model the closer to the outer rim they are, the further apart they must be. If flat-earth theory is true then airline flights from Johannesburg to Sydney near the outer rim must cover a far greater distance than flights from Rome to Tokyo near the center.

Of course all of modern science is based on the global model of the earth, which tells us that Rome is 6,150 miles from Tokyo, and Sydney is 6,870 miles from Johannesburg. Google apparently buys into the global model of the earth, and so do the airlines too. They actually have the audacity to claim that they can fly passengers from Johannesburg to Sydney in less time than it takes to fly them from Rome to Tokyo! (See pic below)

So where does this leave the flat-earth model and its claims? This can’t possibly be true if we chart these flight paths on a flat-earth map. Clearly, if flat-earth is true, then the airliners must be deceiving their passengers! Perhaps the corporate airlines are in on the massive flat-earth coverup with NASA!

FlightsonFE

However, if the global model of the earth is true, then these distances and flight times make perfect sense. The distances between these parallel cities are affected by their distance from the equator and the two poles, rather than their distance from the center of a flat disk. Back in the real world flights between both pairs of cities each cover roughly one quarter of the total circumference of the globe, as shown below.

GEtokyoGEsydney

Of course I could be wrong about all this, and I am open to being corrected. In fact, I am interested in seeing what an “accurate” flat earth map would look like that takes into account these distances and flight times! But I highly doubt such a thing is possible…

This has been a fun and interesting exercise for me here on a Wednesday afternoon, but the bigger problem at the root of this issue, let us not forget, is “how do we read our Bibles?” My belief is that those who read their Bibles literally (without taking into account context, common sense, and the progressive nature of Scripture’s inspired trajectory), are not proving that they take the Word of God seriously. No indeed, this means that they are not taking the Word of God seriously enough!


91 thoughts on “Flat Earth Controversy and the Bible

  1. Seriously? I mean, seriously? Flat earth? Resurgence? Now just after you write a post, an interesting and well reasoned post about authority and the governments role, asking good and thoughtful questions, you decide that a supposed flat earth resurgence has occurred and our proper hermeneutical skills are in serious danger? Please, please, tell me you are doing this tongue in cheek. You are, aren’t you. Lol. Man you are good. Had me going there for a minute or too. You’re just too clever for me. I should have caught that earlier. I’m going to keep and eye on you mister. You are a master of chicanery!! Do another trick, please???!!!

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  2. You haven’t heard of the flat earth resurgence? It’s real, my friend, just google it or go on youtube. The point of my article is that improper hermeneutics leads to acceptance of the flat earth model. I’m not supporting Flat Earth cosmology in any way. Of course the same hermeneutic leads to Young Earth Creationism, which I believe is also wrong. To understand in a deeper way what I am talking about I suggest reading “Inspiration and Incarnation” by Peter Enns. See http://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00XNJGOWS -Thanks for the comment!

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  3. Well i have also been going thru a lot of these videos and discussions. Helio-centric or Geo-centric doesnt really matter to me, a believer, as I am Yeshua/Jesus-centric :)….but something that i wonder about is if the earth is round or spherical and revolves around the sun, why was the sun, moon and the stars made on the fourth day according to Genesis…would like to know your point of view on that

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  4. 6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. *
    7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day

    14 ¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: *
    15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
    16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. *
    17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

    this is gen1:…this sounds deceptive, if we be on globe
    ps104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

    somebody should tell God he is mistaken, to look @ all the evidence will take you more than a wednesday after noon, peter

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  5. You’ve obviously seen some good YT videos, (Skiba NOT being part of any decent work on the subject). How about just using our own eyes to see we clearly DO NOT live on a spinning ball speeding through no where. The proof is all around us and the deceit lines up perfectly with the time frame of serpent seed control of all things earthy.

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  6. Watch “The Principle” documentary. The film has scientists admit up to date data proves the Earth is at the center of the universe just as our Father told us. Scientists however, who Peter seem to have more faith in than God, continue by policy to reject what the data proves if it confirms the bible and a creator and add even more theoretical band aids to their heliocentric model when the plain truth of scripture is Manifest.The same goes for evolution and a young Earth.

    The great delusion is before us and the dividing lines are set.Most will go the easy way believing in scientific fairy tale interpretations while calling the bible fairy tales.Peter will be first in line to greet the fake alien saviors.

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  7. I cannot believe that you are actually considering the ridiculous conspiracy theory of a flat earth. It is precisely this type of charlatanry a la Rob Skiba that destroys the faith of those early in their Christian walk. Were it not because I have learnt to laugh at those making money from gullible people, i.e. L.A. Marzulli, et al., Id walk away from the Faith without remorse. The manly, responsible response to this absurdity that borders on insanity, should be absolute repudiation. Shame on you!

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  8. to state here that i started following peter with perfecting the pretrib rapture, iding nimrod for antichrist, i have no doubt he is a believer, thanks, pete. quick quiz…

    who is the father of lies? satan

    jn8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    who is the god of this world? satan

    2cor4:4a In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not

    who gives kingdoms and power in this world, to the elite? when they bow to him? satan

    mt4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
    9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

    and their god is the father of lies

    final question, how many interpretations are? one, the literal, God is the author, he does’nt leave it open…

    2peter1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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  9. guys. girls. animals. aliens. lend me your ears. Seems like y’all are getting your panties in an uproar. One of you seems to think peter is endorsing the flat earth scenario. I don’t believe that’s the case. The rest of you, lower your conspiracy meter sensitivity a bit and calm down. Is the earth round? Of course. Does not scripture say “it is he who sits above the circle of the earth?” Is it “floating” in space? Yep. Again, scripture says “He stretches out the north over the void, and hangs the earth on nothing.” Peter makes his error by oversimplification, as he is wont to do. The bible does not “teach” a flat earth cosmology. It teaches no cosmology. It merely makes statements. Some are analogies. Some are metaphors. It uses symbols, similes, etc. The bible is no more saying the earth is square and flat when it uses phrases such as four corners of the earth than it is saying God is nothing more then a raging hormone when it says He is love. The trick is to spend some time, a LOT of time, actually learning how to interpret scripture and learn it’s usage of figures of speech, literary genres, apocalyptic language, et. al. So Peter is wrong here. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either all is literal or some it, or nothing is. You can’t posit that the bible uses figurative language and then demean it for using figurative language. Another point Peter, as I add another to the list of people you don’t much like, adding now young earth creationist, as one who has followed their teachings and read many of their books over 40 plus years, their hermeneutic is nothing at all like flat earthers. You are make your most common mistake, the genetic fallacy. YEC believers do not, as a group, believe in a flat earth. They would be stunned that you would make such an error by association. The difference is that YEC organizations are made up of thousands of scientists that all have masters and doctorates in their related fields of scientific study, I doubt you can say that for flat earthers. YEC’s are trying to match science with scripture, but they surely would tell you they will take scripture first but with one caveat, scripture PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD. And not scripture interjected where it does not speak, but always in accordance with TOTAL revealed truth. So peoples, my peoples, calm down. And flat earthers, you need to read some science and definitely some scripture. And Peter, stop with the genetic fallacy stuff. When you don’t do that, you posts can be very interesting.

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  10. 1tim6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
    18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
    19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
    20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of SCIENCE falsely so called:
    21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

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  11. Circle of the earth is most likely a disk shape as the word for ball or sphere was not used. The Bible says the Earth does not move and is on foundations. That is consistent with “it hangs on nothing” meaning it isn’t hanging on anything’ it is on foundations and stationary.

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  12. you seem to miss the point, unless you believe the earth is circular but flat, There would be no Hebrew word for ball or sphere, thus they used the word they did have, which is “circle”. I could be wrong, (lol), but a sphere viewed from any angle would appear to be round, or circular. Either way, you definitely don’t have a flat, four cornered earth being described here. As for the bible saying the earth doesn’t move, if you would read my post again, and I am assuming you have done at least some study in biblical languages and genre, saying the earth has foundations and is immovable means the earth sits on columns is like believing that God sits on a throne means a spiritual being needs a chair to rest on. Also, you never gave any specific scripture references so I don’t know what passages you are referring to. Would I be correct in assuming you believe God has nostrils and (really big) hands? Or that the universe is literally a blanket? Would it be wool or cotton. Seriously, some of you are the ones who feed the fodder to critics of Christianity, You may be sincere, but you are sincerely ignorant (notice I did not say stupid). You have got to move on past simplistic (and intellectually lazy) reasoning and do some actual bible study. Whipping through a concordance to find the words you want or practicing eisegesis by reading a meaning into rather than out of scripture, or expecting authors of books from 2700+ years ago to use 21st century vocabulary is just rather silly. Now I believe in the inerrant word of God. I believe there is no error in the bible. I also believe, just like any piece or writing or literature, it must be interpreted according to it’s time, culture, and genre. It isn’t all that hard. And by the way, if the earth is flat, how come no one has ever flown past its boundaries? All those photos of our globe are just a conspiracy by global elitists to fool us? Again, if the earth is flat, what’s on the bottom? Any photos of columns? Anyone? No one has seen the bottom? Well then, maybe it’s because, as the word of God says, it is CIRCULAR, AND HANGS (sits?) on NOTHING!!! You know, our country having FOUNDING fathers doesn’t mean that they are encased in cement holding up the white house. Come on people!!

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  13. actually the Hebrew word literally means circle, but yes, that too would describe a round or “ball” shaped object.

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  14. @ about 27:50 dr. mike heiser explains the hebrew, and states if you believe the bible to be literal, you believe in a flat earth…chuck

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  15. Wow, when you are referencing Skiba, your pool of resources has run dry. You phraseology reveals a common misunderstanding among the biblically uneducated. Believing in a literal bible does not mean everything in it is to be understood literally. The true (tho obviously some disagree) definition of inspiration is that God inspired the bible but did so allowing the person writing to use the language and terminology of his or her culture. God was not interested in teaching astronomy or any cosmology whatsoever. God’s Word is primarily a theological message. As long as the theology was correct, the science was rather irrelevant. Surely if God is omniscient then He knew that eventually manking would discover the what, how, and why of what makes His creation tick, so to speak. It would be incoherent to inspire someone living in 600 b.c. to speak in 21st century vernacular. Imagine the apostles starting off their gospel message with “as we all stand here today on this round earth, with a circumference of 25,000+ miles, as galaxies spin endlessly millions of light years from earth…..etc.” I don’t believe they would have ever gotten around to the message of salvation. I imagine some people think that God’s language is identical to their very own. God had no problem with the writers of scripture writing in their own terms to convey a message that their audience would understand. As Heiser points out in his video, the language the Hebrews used was filled with terms consistent with ANE terminology. To speak with someone not native to your culture, you must speak in ways that they understand. And please be clear on this, the BIBLE does not “teach” anything. It is a book. Books don’t do anything. People interpret what’s in the book, almost always, if not always, with a particular bias. It is only natural to do so. We all interpret our life experience with such bias, usually adopted from culture, learning, what we are taught by teachers and parents, etc. Satan obviously thought he could successfully tempt Christ. Was that the TRUTH? Apparently not, but it is recorded in the bible. Satan lied to Adam and Eve. Was he telling the TRUTH? Obviously not. Believing in inspiration does not mean, accurately understood, that every SINGLE word in the bible is conveying a truth, scientifically or otherwise. We just believe that it accurately conveys the desire and intent of the author. God did NOT dictate the Bible. The bible is not the Quran, and Christians are not muslims. You act as if the video you referenced supports your view. It does not. It supports Michael Heiser’s view, which is that the Hebrews used language consistent with their culture. I do question one statement he makes though. He seems to imply, and it was a brief statement so I may have misunderstood his full intent, that the debate about the earth being flat was still going on in the 15-16th centuries. While in still was in many circles, St. Augustine of Hippo, from the 5th-6th century had warned his fellow Christians not to appear foolish to the pagans by arguing that the earth was FLAT.Here us clear indication that long long ago there were people, including Christians, that had accepted that the earth was NOT flat, but round. I will only add that Heiser’s views are his own. There is much debate still about how much Israel borrowed from ANE concepts of surrounding nature. But thank you for the reference.

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  16. thanks murray. I couldn’t have said it worse myself. I appreciate how trollers chirp in. What was the intent of your quoting of scriptures? That we shouldn’t accept science? Shouldn’t argue about it? What? Don’t just throw a glob of scriptures at people and think you have done your job. If an unbeliever read your post, what exactly would or should he or she absorb from it? You’ve got to think along the lines of communicating with people. And yes, it can take a lot of effort, a long time, and surprise surprise, some knowledge. If your envious of what I know, go learn it yourself. I am sure you are capable. And what I know I have spent over 40 years accumulating and teaching. Skeptics often accuse Christians of being backward, stupid, afraid of difficult thinking. I have no intention of encouraging them in any of those areas. Witnessing isn’t just quoting John 3:16, as easy as that may be. Jesus spent three years or so teaching his disciples, and they still understand very little of what He said. Forgive me for being thorough, but I don’t assume anything about what other people know. Neither should you.

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  17. ok, let me start over…from the following text…

    gen1;1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
    4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. *
    5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. *
    6 ¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. *
    7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    chuck, can you give me your literal understanding of the text?

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  18. Let God be true and every man a liar. If Christians would just trust and believe God we would have a unique message that stands out and rings true the further the world veers into deception.
    I’ve seen enough from scientists to know they are full of speculation and theory but in textbooks their wishes and hopes are taught as proven fact to gullible students who are indoctrinated from an early age to reject the revelation of scripture.

    I am talking about scientific theory taught as fact which includes our origins and the cosmos. Don’t try the tactic of pointing to technology and saying that is science so they must know what they are talking about.Fallen angels gave men a lot of technology before the flood and may continue to do so today. What seems like magical inventions often have a poison pill with it. Our modern age has brought on all manner of sickness and diseases because of the adverse health effects of technology. I might add that many advances are brought about by amateur inventors and tinkerers at home who reject scientific dogma that says something is impossible and they know better.

    The creation story as told to us in Genesis and endorsed by Jesus is how it happened. When Moses tells us that the Earth was watered with a mist from the ground before the flood that is scientific fact unknown to scientists and not some ethereal nothing. I marvel how God takes care to give just enough scientific revelation in passing to refute the lies he knew would eventually take hold. He not only tells us creation took six days but he took pains to make clear it was six literal days and the order he created things anticipating the Big Bang theory and billions of years and trillion of light years nonsense we have today that gives rise to believe anything you desire including multiple universes, aliens, and especially that we are insignificant and an accident of nature lost on the outskirts of trillions of stars and planets and universes.

    Evolution needs billions of years and it needs the Big Bang in order to fool the masses by overwhelming them with theoretical gobbledygook so much that the layman thinks people much smarter than them must know what they are talking about. That is idol worship trusting the word of men over God’s word. That is believing the serpent in the garden over God. I don’t care how the world treats us or thinks of us as we tell the truth. Jesus said we would be hated by men.

    There are candid admissions by these supposed learned men that whenever the evidence points to a creator or the Bible story they suppress such evidence and reinterpret it or discard it. It is well known these men exist on outside funding and they are careful to toe the ideological line.Academia is legendary for their disdain for belief in God and the Bible which is the foundation of knowledge. Theoretical science is the new religion.Men cannot prove their globe Earth theories so they create a scientific Hollywood called NASA to feed us poorly produced space videos and CGI and photoshop junk.I take the sure word of God over their lying space porn.I will not worship and place my faith in admitted liars and God haters.

    Choose now; Believe our creator and Father in heaven or believe Satan’s science fiction.

    We could be a light to the world with God’s glorious salvation gospel which includes the truth of our origins. We have the niche of truth-a young creation–an earth that is a circular disk that sits stationary on a foundation covered by a dome with the heavenly lights enclosed and revolving around Earth which is at the center of God’s creation. God is nearby and above the dome in heaven so much so that we are likened to his footstool. We are not an accident of nature–bastard children with no known father in a back alley of the universe. We are a special creation! We are center stage in the cosmos! We are significant with a glorious future as children of God!

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  19. Amen, God Father,help your children understand your Truth in these last days, and help us individually and collectively reach those of your children still to come, in Jesus name…my God & my King…

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  20. Just wondering if any of you have fasted & prayed about the shape? IE Pear, Convex, Concave, / Glass Sky, Oblate Spheroid, Variety of Flat Earth Models etc etc. I used to subscribe to Oblate Spheroid / Expanding Earth myself until The Creator showed me different.

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  21. thanks for the question, murray. I’m sad to say that to give you my complete interpretation of this passage would take a small book. And that’s not including other interpretations that have accumulated over the past couple thousand of years. It may just be simpler to note a couple of things. While prose is involved here, most all Hebrew scholars, including jewish, non-Christian, etc. agree that this style of writing most resembles what, in simple terms, is historical narrative. This genre reports facts. Simple historical fact. That does not mean that symbols, allegory, metaphors, etc, are never used in doing so, but if you check the commentaries done by experts in the Hebrew language, there is virtual total agreement that whoever wrote Genesis (and I am including the rest of the first chapter and on into two, because I don’t like isolating a few verses out of their contest) intended to convey, among other things, that (1) the Jewish God Jehovah, and He( I use the male gender because, well, scripture does, and not because God is a man) alone!!! created the universe and all that is in it. He is not “in” it (panentheism) nor is he spread through it everywhere (panentheism), nor is he part of a pantheon of Gods (polytheism). Genesis was written to convey these primary “facts”, among other things. (2) In spite of incredible etymological gymnastics that many commentators try to use to prove otherwise, HEBREW scholars are in agreement that the author of Genesis definitely intended, or had in mind, to convey creation taking place during definite periods of time, in this case, DAYS. He use light, dark, evening, morning, DAY, and most important, numeric with each occurrence of day. Now you might still want to argue that he had in mind another concept of what “day” was, but you do so on your own. Whenever, and everywhere else, that this word for day (I don’t have Hebrew fonts, sorry) is used in the bible with a specific numeric, whether, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,10,30,40, etc, Hebrew scholars agree that correct translation in all cases is that ________ number of 24 hour day or days or being referred to. (the passage about a year being like a thousand days is not a parallel with this, altho even here there is no reason to doubt the author means a thousand 24-hour days, and not a thousand indeterminate periods of time). How much more specific could the author be? Light, dark, evening morning, 1st day (or lit. day one), 2nd day etc. You can argue that he means to be symbolic, but you cannot, without violating hermeneutical rules and adding eisegesis, do it correctly with this passage. So the choice is yours. Feel free to do so, but then, to be fair and consistent, be sure you do it everywhere in the old testament where days are mentioned. You know, Noah was in the belly of a giant fish (the Heb. does not say whale) 3 days. Or maybe it was 30. Or 300. Maybe it was 427. Etc. Etc. You get my point. Now am I saying that creation was made in 6 days? Why would you care? I have no idea. I wasn’t there. Got no photos or timed video. I am just saying, that when one leaves aside whatever their scientific presuppositions are and let this passage communicated what the specific language says, the author means six days. Any other interpretation, and there are plenty, IS NOT based on honest and consistent linguistic analysis. I will stop here. Analysis of what “firmament” may or may not mean, what the waters are, etc. etc, will have to wait for my next book. Lol. But understand this. I am not saying the earth was created 6,000 years ago. I am not saying it was created in six days. But be clear too on this point, the author of Genesis, while not writing about any specific year for the creation, he IS saying it took place in six days. I know the counter-arguments. They didn’t know any better. It’s borrowed myth. For the unbeliever, you will be quite at home with those. For a believer in the inspiration of Scripture, you are left with an incorrect and uninspired Bible, or a God who sucks at language skills. If God meant to be symbolic, there were dozens of ways He could have done so. Hope this helps. Sorry for the length.

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  22. to nwhmpshr, or whatever, to reverse the old Jerry Maguire movie line, “you lost me at good-bye”. You said a number of good things, but in doing so give the impression of being anti-scientific. I don’t think this is a good thing. Christ is the Truth. Truth includes knowledge. Remember, you shall KNOW the truth….. Science is part of God’s gift to us. He gave us the ability, among other things, to explore and discover His creation. This is not evil. Science and/or knowledge only becomes evil when it becomes an idol. Not all non-Christian scientists are evil men with a conspiratorial agenda to blaspheme God, at least not intentionally. They are spiritually blind. You can’t expect them to see into areas in which they are blinded.
    Your last paragraph got me though. To believe, in spite of all the obvious proof that the world is flat and sits on anything is just silly. What about the photos from space? They show a circle that hangs on nothing (exactly as scripture says). Why would God make 8 (I want to include Pluto. Poor little dude) planets, all of them obviously spheres that hang and sit on nothing, and then make one flat???!!!! Ever seen a lunar eclipse??? Why is the earths shadow on the moon curved? Remember now, the moon does not orbit earth over the poles, so a flat disc won’t do. And again, if the earth sits on something, why wouldn’t that be reflected in the shadow?? I could go on and on and on. Do you really think every single scientist on earth is in on a deception game?? The are hundreds of thousands, no, more likely millions of Christians in fields of science. All they ALL deceiving us? You mean not ONE will tell us the truth. Even young earth creationists, at least ALL the scientists, believe in a spherical earth moving through space. Do you believe ALL of them are wrong or liars?? C’mon. You have got to realize that is just non-sensical. Go back and read all my comments. Do not throw more nonsense into the discussion until you can refute all that I have said. If you can’t, then you are wrong. I will not answer new questions until those who disagree have at least attempted to respond to my previous answers. Blessings

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  23. And Lord, give us the confidence to live without fear, love those who disagree with us, and discern between Your truth and Satan’s lies. Perfect love casts out fear.

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  24. The bible tells me the earth is a circle that hangs on nothing. The authors of the bible didn’t seem to be concerned that this would mean it would fall endlessly through space in a downward direction unless it had a table to sit on. I don’t need to pray about it’s shape. Circle is close enough for me. Oh great. A black cat just walked under my chair, I hate cats. They make me sneeze. Then my heart will stop. Is there a cardiac saint? Now I am paranoid. I just want to go outside and keep on running till I fall off the earth. AAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  25. i simply asked for your understanding of the literal interpretation of eight verses, if your response is a small book, maybe you are reading in to it….chuck… just those 8 verses, what does it say?

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  26. they don’t say anything, murray. Obviously you can read them for yourself, and just as obviously you will read out of them, as we all do, with presupposition. To show you what they say, all I have to do is repeat them to you. You are asking, I guess, for something more particular. What specifically do you want me to comment on? you asked me for my literal UNDERSTANDING of the eight verses, and I briefly did so. That apparently was insufficient. It’s obvious what it says. So again, what do you specifically want me to comment on, that I haven’t already done, in all of my previous posts?

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  27. what they say to me, at face value…God made heaven & earth, the earth was unformed,His spirit was over the face of the deep, there was dark, He made lite, and it was good, He called lite day, dark nite, even and morn, day1
    He made the firmament to separate water above from water below, the only shape i can imagine is a dome, if it was flat, it would’nt separate water, He calls the firm. heaven, even, morn day 2

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  28. well, your comment pretty much adhered to the words of the verses, until you come to “dome”. That is a word you choose to read into the passage. It is not used in the Hebrew. Another possible meaning for the Hebrew word translated firmament here could be “expanse”. Let me assure you, when the Jews, or Greeks, or Romans saw the shape of a dome, or a put a dome on top of a building, they would not have thought of it as a firmament. None of us having been present at the moment the author of Genesis is describing, we can’t be absolutely sure exactly what it is he is seeing or describing. We don’t know for sure what the water above is or what the water below is. Above and below what? The earth? The deep? If the earth was “unformed”, what exactly was there to separate the waters from. You get my point. All we can do is combine what we know scientifically now with what we think they understood then and how they expressed then. And it is not a certainty we will be right in our conclusions. These verses are talking about the very beginning of creation itself, including the earth and it’s “surroundings”. Things are still void, or chaotic, not in their finished state, so all guesses at what the author intends will involve a lot of conjecture. Of course, you are certainly free to picture a dome, one I assume you envision sitting on a flat, circular earth. Was the earth like a diving bell? Submerged in water? Where did the water go? Did it flow over the dome (from where) and where did it flow to? If I envision a spherical earth, I don’t have to picture a dome covering the top half of it for separation. It could be something encircling the earth. The firmament was intending to separate the waters, not protect the earth. Says nothing about protection there. Just separation. In fact, if the earth is flat and circular, a larger flat circle placed above(?) it could do just fine. Doesn’t have to be a dome. Certainly a large, circular, flat object could separate the waters. Whether you use that or a dome, you still have to ask what is being separated from what, and where do the waters go or what do they become.

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  29. when you believe on faith, you dont need..

    “All we can do is combine what we know scientifically now with what we think they understood then and how they expressed then.”

    do i understand how my God spoke creation around me into being ?, uh, no.

    do i know He did it, yeah, and not with no stinkin science…

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  30. Whether you use that or a dome, you still have to ask what is being separated from what, and where do the waters go or what do they become.

    it would seem an air pocket appeared cause in this dome expanse,He brought dry land up and called it earth..from the water below

    then He put lights in the firmament, “in” for signs,appointments, days and years…where did the water come from, ask Him…

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  31. murray, you are about hopeless. I understand your God of the gaps theology explains what you don’t understand, but faith is not ignorance. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, things unseen. Hoped for. Unseen. I have never literally seen the Son of God, but I believe in Him. Why? Not just because the bible says he lived, but because historical research has verified his life and death. And his resurrection. Without the resurrection, our faith is futile. Futile, murray. Why do you believe in the resurrection. Did you see it. No. Do you believe in it just because someone wrote something on paper and said it’s true. There are dozens of reasons why the resurrection is entirely reasonable even tho none of us know anyone who was dead for three days then pushed themselves out of the casket, through the soil, to walk the earth once again. (Night of the Living Dead is not the name of a documentary). The book of Acts tells us that God left us with “many infallible proofs” pertaining to the life, death, and resurrection. He didn’t just say, believe it cause I say so. He gave us brains, the ability to think and reason. He gave us proofs, not illusions or imaginings. Romans 1 says that the universe is proof or witness to His power and might. We SEE the universe. We SEE creation, complexity, design. We study it, and when gifted by God with His Holy Spirit, we can even understand deeper spiritual truths. He gave us SIGNS to SEE and OBSERVE.
    Where did the water come from or go to? Ask Him. ASK HIM!!. Would you have accepted that one of my answers to your questions, Murray. And I still have no idea what you were asking me about. As to your final question,(or test, for I suppose you are hoping to find something in my answer that you can doubt, instead of it being a sincere question about my salvific status, Salvation is forgiveness of sins, the receipt of eternal life, given as a gift, not by works lest we boast, when we accept that Jesus is Who He said He is, and that He came to do what He claimed He did, and presented His life, death, and resurrection to the Father, who affirmed it was sufficient propitiation as payment for the sins of those He gave to His Son. I am saved the only way anyone is saved. Through, in, of, and by Christ.

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  32. the gap theory? now i know you read things into what is not there, the only gap here is the one between your ears, you are proud, arrogant, narrow minded, get angry when someone uses your own words against you, high minded…i could go on, it would be a waste, you just come back and put me in my place, argumentative, i seem to be going on, take off, eh?

    i am responsible for what i say…thank God i am not responsible for what you understand…

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  33. I hope this means you are leaving this blog. Amazing. you ask someone about salvation, they give an answer, and you do not address it at all. Instead, you use ad hominem attacks instead of intelligent discussion. A pure case of an insecure individual, painfully aware of their limitations, and incapable of actually having a back and forth conversation. You may be completely sincere in what you believe, but amazingly, you haven’t said what you believe, just that you don’t need no stinkin science (badges?). Having a debate about an issue involves argumentation, murray. Not screaming cussing argumentation, but an exchange of ideas in an attempt to hone one’s own beliefs, and perhaps teach or learn something new in the process. If you don’t enjoy it, move on. If you just want someone to agree with everything you say, just talk to yourself. In the real world, exchange, disagreement, compromise, etc. is how it is done. Get better at it and try again.

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  34. ya, sorry chuck, i lost my head…

    i’ve been looking into this flat earth, for a while, with peter i havent figured out the flight path thing but a wee bit angry because there is a strong possibility we’ve been lied to for quite a while, this video was done early last yr….

    chuck, he disabled comments, i’m learning why, good listen tho…

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  35. on this video @ about 30:13 starts an observation inside the arctic circle,if we dont see this yes, find another hobby…

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  36. watched the video. You know, murray, i had , and have, a best friend who was incredible with magic tricks. The things he could do would baffle me. I mean, to my eyes, such and such just obviously happedned, I saw it!!! I was there. It had to have happened. Then he would explain the trick. Then i would feel stupid, How did i miss that. Part of magic is realizing how the mind, and our eyes, work. You can convince yourself, or be convinced of, an apparent obvious truth, only to find out later you were totally bamboozled. Now this is the reasoning this video follows. Hey, you’ve been fooled. Just use your eyes. Use common sense, etc. Well guess what murray, our eyes can “lie” to us. We can think we see something, when we don’t. Like mirages. You just swear that’s water up ahead on the road, then you get there, and…….nothing. Skiba is great at appearing to be scientific, when actually he’s quite adept at mixing a little science, with a chunk of math, with optical illusion, and viola!!!! A round earth. It’s amazing. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Kepler, Einstein (notice the photo with him sticking his tongue out, immediately followed by some hindu god image with tongue sticking out, along with snake or serpent images. Quite “subtle”, huh) and thousands of others decided, during an age where a flat earth concept and sun revolving around the earth were already welcomed and embraced ideas, to just change, why i don’t know (could it be……..SATAN!!!!)the whole cosmological picture. For what purpose ???? What has been accomplished by doing this??? The next to the last section was laughable. This guy wiggles his cursor around a flight schedule of some airline, ignores or dismisses the flights that would verify a round earth, and then uses some that seem to coincide with a flat earth. Do we get to pick and chose our evidence. Who was the dude in the last clip. It was proceeded by the NASA insignia, but trust me here, that was no nasa presentation. Was he part of some underground scientific terrorist organisation? lol. Murray, listen bud. I enjoy conspiracy theories. We all do. Most of us enjoy a good yarn with an interesting plot. Especially one that requires little mental effort. There is so much wrong, distorted, misrepresented, or just plain omitted, it would take a three hour documentary to refute it. First, to teach actual, correct science, and then, like with the magic trick, to explain how their tricks are done. The heart is dark, the mind wicked above all things. The repetition of “use your common sense”, “what do you see” is bad advice for a species with so little knowledge of the universe, and no knowledge at all, unless God gives His Spirit, of God and how He works. I’ll repeat my question from before, why a solar system made up of spherical objects, but a flat earth. Why objects that spin, but not the earth. And don’t you think that the “earth is His footstool” might be metaphorical? God is Spirit. He doesn’t have physical (like us) feet. He doesn’t need a footstool. There’s just too much to refute. If you want to take one topic at a time, fine. But i don’t have the time or inclination to refute a one hour thrown together video with literally hundreds of scientific errors and illogic. But thanks for taking the time.

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  37. chuck did you watch the vid. north of the arctic circle, you go high enough you can watch the sun circle around you in summer, thats not how it would behave, if the sun was 93000000 mi. away

    i’ll answer your question, the solar system, the galaxy, among galaxies are round lights,to lite the nite just like God said

    may i remind you God does have flesh and bone, and He is a preparing an abode for us, when its ready, say rosh hashana, His Father will tell Him go get her (that being us)

    i really think you are too much in this world, chuck, for whatever reason you cant or wont let go…

    “But i don’t have the time or inclination to refute a one hour thrown together video with literally hundreds of scientific errors and illogic”

    humor me, show me one or two errors, please

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  38. oh murray. may the Lord give me patience. First, in regards to your comment, if you believe that God, re. His nature, has flesh and bones, you definitely place yourself outside of orthodox Christianity and the churches beliefs of the last two thousand years, And do I have to, really now, quotes the voluminous scriptures that clearly state God is not a man, and is not like man. Remember, we reflect his image (not nature or essence), He does not reflect ours. However, you do make a good Mormon now, don’t you?
    And Murray, if you were at the top of a sphere that was spinning, the sun going “around” you is EXACTLY what you would see, no matter the distance, 5 miles or 5 billion. The camera was “following” the sun as it traversed the sky from our perspective. Why? Because the earth is spinning. We also know that the further north you go, the longer you may experience periods of daylight. But you should be able to read a simple book on astronomy to get this info, but I forgot, everyone is in on the conspiracy.
    As to the asinine compilation of clips, i’ll start at the end and deal with two, just to comfort you. Now, forgive my French, what in the hell was the guy at the end mumbling about. He is showing a chart with lots of circles, while drinking (something) and grinning fiendishly over the rim of the cup at his (audience) with some sort of Snidely Whiplash (learn something, look him up) expression, while mumbling, pointing, glancing, and using the F-word repeatedly. What is that supposed to prove? Did you learn anything from it? Please explain it to me. Now, as a former fan of conspiracy theories, I’ve seen that expression a lot. It is supposed to convey a “see it!!! see it!!!!. Those rat-bastiches!!!! They’ve been deceiving us!!! sense of discovery. A maniacal guy, grinning weirdly, and cursing into his coffee cup proves absolutely nothing except that people can act stupid and play on the gullibility and desire of people who want to blame someone for everything, instead of convey actual scientific fact. Unless you want to believe that every scholar, philosopher, and scientist or person of learning has conspired to keep a flat earth a secret from us for a couple of thousand years, then “you got some ‘splainin” to do, Lucy. The concept of a round earth actually goes back to antiquity. Yes, many and at times most thought it was flat. And sitting on something. As I previously posted, if you had read it, even the Christian and scholar Augustine was aware that the earth was round, though he may have actually gotten that concept from Lucretius, as couple of centuries earlier. As we came out of the middle ages we managed to discover and develop more and more advanced telescopes. The more advanced we got, the more we learned about our earth, solar system, and the universe. There’s no conspiracy here. Even the concept of the atom goes back millennia, but only recently (in the scale of human history) confirmed. Or do you only believe in what you can see, or appear to see? Do you believe in sub-atomic particles? You’re made up of them. Do you see any?
    Second- the section where the guy is mumbling and suffering from cursor control syndrome (ccs) relating to flight plans, etc. was one of the most nonsensical things I have ever seen. I couldn’t stop laughing. It was as if HE didn’t even know what he was trying to prove. Okay, from Australia to S. America is 7,000 miles, and when we check flight distances, they are …….mmmmmm 7,000 miles. But look, they only fly three days a week, so…….mmmmm. Anyway, here are some flights from S. Africa to S. America that are 14,000 miles. And if we make the earth flat (honestly, quite oblong) we see on a flat earth it would be 14,000 miles. There, we have proved it!!!! Noooooo, not even close. Should we bring up that the flights of 14,000 miles actually go to N. America first, considerably north, and then proceed south to southern S.A. Could this perhaps explain why the flight distance is twice as long, and that it has nothing to do with the shape of the earth???? Seriously, Murray. Can you not reason this for yourself? Are you so wedded to a flat earth that you can no longer understand simple math, logic, perspective??? If this is what impresses you, I certainly can’t help you, because I do quite well with math, logical and coherent reasoning. I’ve got nothing to offer you in the realm of sanity. As to so called doctored photos, repeating patterns (good grief, have you never observed nature?) Look at google earth. Look at the deserts. Look at the dunes. Dozens, hundreds, thousands of dunes that look exactly alike. Are these doctored too? And please, please tell me, because no one has explained it yet, why would there be this conspiracy? If it’s this big and all encompassing, what is it’s purpose? To double flight times? Where’s the edge of the earth? When will we hit the dome? Atomic warheads trying to break through the dome over the earth? My goodness, Murray, I fear for your sanity and safety. No one has ever traveled around the earth over the poles. You’re serious, right? The ONE guy (and you want me to disprove all this for you) who tried was arrested? Now, there may be something going on at the south pole, but enforcing “over the edge” safety regulations is probably not one of them.
    So there, so very much of my time wasted. Why didn’t I let my five year old niece do this? First, get your doctrines correct or quit pretending to be a true, biblically authentic Christian. If you are a Mormon, just admit it and be honest. If not, you will not be able to prove your beliefs in a flesh and blood God with either the bible or historic Christian teaching. Please, get a life. And read for yourself. It may seem comforting to be boxed in with a limited set of beliefs and concepts and following some fringe movement, but I can assure you that knowing Christ in a full, spiritual sense is far more freeing and fulfilling. Step out into the light.

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  39. Murray, for your own sake, you need to tap into a good church or Christian support group, assuming you are Christian. You’ve got to get away from conspiracy sites, which even this one appears to be. Move as far away as you can from all occult or cultic related teachings and ministries. There is so much error in the world today, and yes, even the body of Christ. Just go somewhere, with the bible, and read it, letting it speak for itself. Find a mentor, someone who evidences the true teachings of Christ found in scripture, and let them help you. Do NOT, however, let someone lead you away from clear teachings of Scripture. There are so many organizations and “ministries” out there who have become over zealous in their efforts to “figure out what the others have missed”. There is very poor scholarship often involved, and just because you can get a book into print does not confirm that you are teaching truth, especially biblical. Satan likes nothing better than to get us fearful, and isolated. Not everything is a conspiracy, and “new” truths are not always true at all. Trust in God, perfect love casts out fear, seek Him with “all” of yourself, and, trusting in God as I do, I know He will answer your prayers if you seek him with a humble heart. I pray the best for you. If I seem angry at you when I post, I apologize. My exasperation is not really with you, but the one who comes to steal, kill, and destroy. As one of his former servants, I am quite aware of his wiles. I do not wish you to be deceived.

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  40. you went ahead and viewed more then what you were told, did’nt you, bad chuck… i gave you approximate time of start for the piece i was referring to, only…is Christ God? yes. is Christ man? yes. is the resurrection of Christ flesh and bone? yes.

    And Murray, if you were at the top of a sphere that was spinning, the sun going “around” you is EXACTLY what you would see, no matter the distance, 5 miles or 5 billion. The camera was “following” the sun as it traversed the sky from our perspective. Why? Because the earth is spinning.

    your arent getting it…draw a circle, put a moveable dot on the circle, close to the edge, say 8 or 9 inches away from the dot edge make a little sun, now rotate the moveable dot counter clockwise along the edge of the circle 90 deg. from the dots perspective, the sun moved to the right,slightly, now move the dot c.c. another 90 deg. so you are at 180 deg.the sun appears to come back to the starting point, another 90, you are at 270, now the sun appears to move left, a little, then back to the start. so does the sun of your heliocentric, scientific mind set circle the dot? no.

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  41. well, now we know you can draw. Let’s back up a bit. Who took the video? Do you know? Where was it taken? Do you know? When was it taken? Do you know? Did you see a time stamp on the video? I could ask more questions, but do you know the answer, beyond any doubt, of any of these questions? If you don’t, then for scientific purposes, it is useless. For all you know, it’s a lot of splicing and photoshopping. Without this information, you have no context for analyzing the video. It could be real. It could be a total fraud. Now to your question. Who said the sun circles the earth? I didn’t. Do you believe it does? If you don’t, then what is your purpose for the question. I never said the sun circles the earth, i.e. per your statement, “the sun circle the dot”. Your question is non-sensical. Your answering a question no one asked. And by the way, all you did was repeat one of the segments of the video.
    Your other statement is a non-sequitur. The fact that Christ is both God and man, i.e. incarnated into flesh, does not make God flesh and bone. It makes the human nature of the incarnated Christ flesh and bone, now glorified. The inner essence of Christ, that which existed before incarnation, is divine, deity. See Phil. 2:6-8. The fact that the Son of God incarnated into flesh does not negate His divine nature. God incarnated into a flesh and bones body. The eternal nature of God did not turn into flesh and bone. You seem aware that Jesus has two natures, for lack of a better word. Combining or eliminating one of them is a heresy that goes back to the early church. Is that what you meant to say, or did you use poor choice of words.
    You really didn’t address my explanation of the video. You just repeated what the video said. So are we done now. I am. I’m weary of answering your questions only to have you ignore the answers and move on to other questions. That’s a game that can go on indefinitely. First you complain that I don’t want to waste a lot of time addressing the compiled video, which was chock full of illogic, non sequiturs, fallacies, etc. So I pulled out two sections, to mollify to, answer them, and your response is to say I watched more of the video than you referred to? Really? That’s your response? And you don’t see that as a shallow and irrelevant response? So really now, as our exchange has consisted of you throwing out questions, ignoring responses, and silly side comments, I don’t think you can rationally accuse me of ignoring or dismissing you. I have give far more time and thought in this exchange than you have. Now you need to grow up and leave home. Time to go out on your own. Read some books. Learn some stuff. Stop wasting people’s time. Make much better use of yours. Your behavior is, oh my gosh, so typical of the juvenile and vain type that occurs on the internet. You think if you can keep asking questions, while answering none, until people just get tired and walk away, that somehow that means you have achieved victory. No Murray, it just means they grow weary of showing things to people who can’t or won’t see, or explaining things to people who can’t or won’t hear. Jesus had no time for these type of people. He was the first to call them blind guides and fools. If your “responses” had some substance or showed any effort at reasoning and understanding, I might indulge you further. But they don’t, and I won’t. Find someone else to pester. When you grow up, I might try again. Wishing you the best in your delusions.

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  42. Murray, if winning or losing is all you live for, then fine, you win. There now, you’re life continues to have meaning. Again, you have answered none of my questions. You lose. You have only told me, supposedly, that said video was made in 2009, “before” the flat earth topic became popular. Seriously? I think people from thousands of years ago would disagree that flat earth concept is a 21st century idea. You lose. You still didn’t explain who, what, when(just what you think or heard) or where the video was made. You lose. You show me a clip from some movie from India involving a flat earth dance. Wow. Now that is evidence? You lose. You video about the horizon is filled with error, and fallacious arguments (i.e. there should be thousands of photographs of boats ships bldgs. disappearing over the horizon. There are such photos Murray, but exactly why should there be thousands? Would that satisfy flat earthers? Doubtful. They would just claim they were doctored, as they do space photos of earth). In the video, notice that the author of said video has the ocean surface RISING up above the sight line of the observer. That is not what the earth surface does(except for mountains, etc.) Murray. It goes straight out and then very slowly curves downward. Any idiot should know that. You lose. And by the way, let’s, for sake of argument, allow the argument about thousands of photos. A good maxim in scientific study is “absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. but there is plenty of evidence available out there, Murray, unless, I guess, everyone on earth except for you and a very few others are in on the “lie”. You lose.
    Again, you have offered no evidence, and have not actually answered any of my questions. You just find another video. This leads me to believe that you cannot actually defend your viewpoint yourself. May I suggest then that it is a viewpoint that is not worth having, if you don’t understand it or can’t defend it on your own.
    So once again, I have been very kind and patient with you. Now you must go outdoors and play, and quit bothering the adults. You can have your flat earth. You just need to know that very very few people live on it. And oh yea, I’ve got some videos on lizard aliens and people living on the sun if you need to see them. Perhaps you need something new to be afraid of, to give meaning to your life. (what’s that noise behind you ???!!! what was that shadow outside your window??!! Was it Mulder? Scully? Lizard aliens??!!) Seriously, just grow up. And go away. Stop being dumb and irritating. If that was your intention, then okay. You win. Bye

    Like

  43. ever since you’ve been here, chuck, you’ve belittled everybody with opposing views, discard evidence w/o consideration, generally beat up everybody, but…

    pro18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

    this topic on the surface is crazy, but when you start to consider the ramifications, hear evidence realize there is something to it..

    my wife has reminded me time and time again, if one is not ready to hear, all the truth in the world wont change the outcome…

    no chuck, i anit no stinkin mormon either…

    i have passed from death to life, in a state of forgiveness (salvation), thru belief on Him, my God and King

    i am your brother in Christ 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  44. Murray, if your God has a body of flesh and bones, we are not brothers. And if anyone, including you or your wife, can look at our exchanges and see that my answers are 10-20 times longer than your brief little video references, and conclude i have not engaged you, then you might want to apply your wife’s words to yourself. It might just be you who is the blind one. And what ramifications? I’ve believed all my life that the earth is round. If it is flat, as you say, I am unaware of ANY ramifications on my life. What have i missed? How was i effected?
    And I thought the purpose of blogs was to exchange ideas. To confront with opposing views. How else do we grow in knowledge? Just by back-slapping each other and saying “You da man!!!” What utter silliness. Welcome to the world, murray, the big round world. And now, once again, I have no desire to waste my time and efforts with you. I have been incredibly patient with you, indulging one silly point after another. I don’t believe i owe you anything further. Maybe you should find a site where everyone will agree with you. Have you noticed NO ONE ELSE has bothered to engage you. Wonder why? Bye. All further attempt at correspondence will be greeted with “sorry, the number you have reached is busy in the real world.”

    Like

  45. john 20:26 ¶And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed

    i guess this is not flesh but spirit that thomas is handling, i did not know you could handle spirit, chuck…

    i got six likes, you got squat…so people are tuned out or watching on the side, but i got your number when you walked in the door, has anyone else bothered to engage you?

    so if you want to go, bring it… i cant find scripture to support a globe, but the bible believes the earth is flat. regardless of what you understand…

    Like

  46. once more ladies the Gentlemen, the bible…

    job37:18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

    job22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

    amos9:6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name

    prov8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    job26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
    12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.

    1sam2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

    ps104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

    ps136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
    8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever: *
    9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

    Like

  47. you know, I was on a site recently, where one of the bloggers was REAL excited about getting six “likes”. Ahahahahahahahahahahah!!! What a miserable and lonely tyke he must be. Wow, six likes. Gee, wish my life could be fulfilled that way. I can only envy him. Truly. I also once talked to someone who thought that the resurrection body of Jesus was “only” flesh and bone. They never seemed to think it “odd” that a flesh and bone body could disappear at will and penetrate walls. I think they were confusing it with a “glorified” body, one radically changed from it’s original state. They also thought this meant that the very Godhead itself, the Triune God, was now flesh and bones. Wow, now weren’t they silly? These at many other silly things have I encountered on the Internet, where lonely people hunger for “likes”, and fearful people seek out conspiracies to validate said fears. It’s a sad world, isn’t it? Oh well, I am the eternal optimist. Someday, on some site, I will encounter someone who just wants to have a rational discussion, with point and counterpoint, give and take, without devolving into mass hysteria because someone doesn’t validate every viewpoint they have. May I suggest to all who read this, as an aside and bit of advice, that interpreting likes a validating your point is like believing all book reviews on Amazon are purely objective and colored in no way by presuppositions nor prior inclination. Just a bit of advice.

    Like

  48. Seriously, Murray, I will pray for you. I don’t doubt that you are sincere. Maybe a great husband and dad, perhaps. And I certainly never intended to rock your world or become another banality that effects your peace of mind. You are more than welcome to your flat earth and whatever concept you have of deity. No one gets their mind changed on the Internet. It is just a place for people to pretend they are liked and delude themselves into thinking anyone really cares what they think. I’ve tried over the years, now and then, to engage in rational discussions. but there are none, not really. It’s just a forum for the needy. I only hopped on this site, the first one in several years, because of the good doctor’s post. It’s the soppy side of me, you know, the part of oneself that loves puppies and cheers for the Barton Belles of Pitch Perfect to win the singing contest, that led me to engage. And as it always has been, it became just another fruitless exercise. So very few people are here to actually accumulate knowledge. Everyone has a viewpoint, and everyone else sure as hell better agree with it or there’s………well……insults to pay. Enjoy the remainder of your life. And though it would be a pleasure to have a normal conversation with you………well, let’s just pretend we did. God bless you. Now, and from now on, the number you have reached is very busy in the real world. If you would like to leave a message, fine. Just know the person you called will not respond. Ever again.

    Like

  49. all i ever wanted to do was let the Word of God speak, literally and maybe expose the many wiles of the devil…

    have i seen the edge, no probably never will in this life, do i believe the enemy, the god of this temporal plane has sold us a bill of goods, yes

    i live in calgary, canadian eh? so i see the rockies quite clearly, people have identified the peaks south,by sight to the north by sight, so i went on google to calc. the dist. 110 miles approx., as the crow flies we are 50 miles east of the mnt. range, no curvature (8 in. per mile X dist. squared) should have lost over 2400 ft. of height, nope flat as a pancake

    Like

  50. we’re sorry. the number you have reaching is busy. Please, at the sound of silence, feel free to leave a message. Just don’t expect a reply. brrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrr

    Like

  51. We’re not sorry. The number you have reached is busy in the real world. Feel free to leave immature messages but do not expect an answer. For conspiracy and flat earth theories please call 1-487-285-2727. brrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrbrrrrrrrr

    Like

  52. you know your best friend the magician, if he is into it, has a demonic spirit on his shoulder whispering in his ear, not a good friend to have in this world, but you are in this world are’nt you chuck? thats why you deny the word of God so adamantly

    let me introduce you to somebody i just met… the AMAZING MUMFORD…poof..you are a duck, chuck…

    Like

  53. We’re not sorry. The person you are attempting to reach is busy in the round, biblical, non-fearful. If you want to leave a message, no one cares. For jfk, moon landing, flat earth, and “a demon around ever corner” conspiracy advocates, please dial our toll-free number 1-968-273-3862. And please, have a delusional day.

    Like

  54. so, anyways, this mnt range i can see 110 mi. of, according to spherical trig. @ 90 mi. i should lose 5400 ft., in all direction, thats just NOT the case… you guys in hawaii, climb a hill look around, see what you see…

    Like

  55. an aside to all interested, using the pythagorean theory, the earth curvature is 8 inches per mile, so according to this calculation, the earth would curve aprox. 60 ft per 90 miles, not 5400. Amazing what correct math can do. Courses are available on line.

    Like

  56. we’re not sorry. The number you are trying to reach is not available to conspiracy theorists. While we have received a large volume of calls inquiring as to the curvature of the earth, we repeat, with the caveat that on the internet one can find any answer one is looking for, that the sites that accept a curved earth are virtually unanimous in stating that the earth curves at aprox. 8 inches per mile, when using standard, non-polluted (the insertion of unnecessary information). We acknowledge that there are some who believe in a flat earth. For those, we offer no assistance. We are not the blind leading the blind. For those interested in flat earth, we suggest you call 1-fal-lin-goff. Have a round day.

    Like

  57. we’re not sorry. Our system uses a filter that screens out all conspiracy theorists and lunatics. Perhaps you should call 1-800-IAM-DUMB. Please have a round day.

    Like

  58. Again, we are so not sorry. The person you are trying to reach is out measuring the curve of the earth. He happened to read a local story about wind machines offshore, and how local residents didn’t really want them, but were more willing if they were eight miles or more offshore, WHERE THEY COULDN’T BE SEEN. What a round world we live in huh? Anyway, for conspiracy theorists and flat earthers, please call 1-FAL-LIN-GOFF. Have a round day.

    Like

  59. Were not sorry, but the person you are rebuking is living on another world. A round one. Please call 1-ISE-EAD-EMON if you can’t win a debate. Have a round day.

    Like

  60. as an aside, for those wanting a whooooooooooooooole lot of laughs, check out the videos posted on this blog. I must warn you, though, that they can’t seem to agree with each other. One says there is no south pole, and anothers waxes eloquent about the differences between the two. Another one implies that the sun is just, well, just a few miles away from the earth, or at least no where near the 93000000 miles that everyone is “lying about”. I honestly have never heard such illogical and contradictory reasoning as one will find in these videos. The argumentations have more logical and reasoning fallacies than one can shake a stick at, and more emotive ploys than a drug addict will use in begging for money to get high. Seriously, ya’ll should check em out. They just be hilarious. If they weren’t so sad. Have a round day.

    Like

  61. i asked Him, He showed me proof, undeniable proof thru others made in His image, and not believers, some of them, just awake…

    Like

  62. I feel the urge to add my two cents worth.
    When God created man(kind), His intentions were that humans remain simple. That they integrate with His creation of the world. Though man(kind) was given dominion over animals, man(kinds) status was to remain simple. Use what is here. See and respect all that is here. Be part of all that is here. And not to get involved with knowledge not intended.
    Satan, IMHO, had to have had some part in the creating of mankind. He was insistent on ‘opening up’ man(kinds) mind and expanding their knowledge. Satan couldn’t stand not be allowed to go the extra distance and giving man(kind) knowledge.
    And look where we are.
    Arguing over flat-earth vs orb-earth.
    Is this bringing any of us closer to God’s Word, through his Son Yeshua?
    Is this making clearer are understanding of what is happening in the world today?
    No matter what we come to conclude through our study of the Bible pertaining to ‘literal’ versus ‘figurative’, it is the word of God relating to our behavior, that is paramount.
    The Bible is clear that there is not going to be anything new that hasn’t been known before.
    But are we not losing ourselves in working to be definitive over words spoken by a people who may not have had a better means of explaining?
    We, ALL of us, are in for shocking realizations if we are here to live during the tribulation.
    Shocking realizations that will alter our perception of what has been told; what is the truth and what is the cost, for not taking God’s Word, through His most Holy Son, that He, and He alone, is the way to Heaven.
    I love to argue ideas. Truly I do. And can with passion.
    Yet for all that there is to argue over, I have come to believe it is better to become simple again. To know right from wrong. Moral from immoral. Justice from injustice. Love from hate. To believe in God the Father and His Son, who suffered, to fulfill the will of His Father as well as to fulfill His deep Love for us.
    And IF I live to see the ‘red moon’, then I hope to be simple enough to know that I will have to face fear as well as great wonder, yet always with my heart given to Yeshua.

    Like

  63. well, having exhausted all possible alternate explanations (i jest, of course) it must mean the world is flat. If i am ever driving from Johannesburg to Sydney, I will be sure to double up on my fuel estimates. Unless i am going solar. And with the sun only a few thousand miles above a flat earth, surely the recharge should only take seconds. Unless i hit some rough spots on our flat pancake. Or will the sun shield be up on the dome? Sigh. Truly natural selection cannot be seriously considered a progressive or improving process. There’s just too many indications otherwise. The mileage is close, but not the same. Did we consider direction, stopovers, etc? And if the mileage is the same on a flat earth or round, why would there be ANY significant difference in time? And if the mileage is almost the same……oh forget it. Are you saying the mileages are incorrect? Or that the northern hemisphere is round and the southern flat. Please, what the hell is wrong with you?

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  64. I’m sorry, did i miss a homework assignment? And what in the world would lead you to think you have some imaginary right to require anything of me? I sure hope you haven’t sat around waiting to hear from me. Far as i knew, you were still down the rabbit hole

    Like

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