Pre-Wrath, Pre-Trib… or Red Moon?

I’ve just published two more articles at www.redmoonrising.com.

The first is called “The Red Moon Rapture compared to the Pre-Wrath Rapture” and is a critique of what I see as weak points in the popular Pre-Wrath prophetic model.

The second is called “Paul Teaches the Olivet Discourse to the Church” and is a subtle critique of certain Pre-Trib scholars who argue that Jesus did not teach the Olivet Discourse to the Church. I show that He did, because Paul takes the same information and teaches it to the Church of the Thessalonians. Why is this important? Well, Jesus taught us very emphatically to “watch” for certain signs. If that is true, then the rapture cannot be “imminent” and it is not a “signless” event that could take us by surprise “at any moment”…  At least not for those who are watching and praying according to Jesus’ instructions TO THE CHURCH in Luke 21:36,

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The fulfillment of this passage is shown in Revelation 7 when the Church is described in Heaven, having escaped away from the great tribulation (without experiencing it, just like Lot escaped Sodom), standing next to the Son of Man. (This all takes place prior to the seven-year tribulation, by the way… at least as far as I’ve got it worked out). And oh yeah, Happy New Year!


23 thoughts on “Pre-Wrath, Pre-Trib… or Red Moon?

  1. That’s a very good point and one I’d never considered, either–therefore, the Rapture of His Church is only imminent during the near-approach up to the beginning of the 7 years of severe tribulation/wrath of God that culminates in Armageddon, and the Lord’s Second Coming–the Lord did say that no one knows ‘the day or hour’–yet, told us to discern the ‘signs of the times’–

    –the problem is, tho–the apostle Paul had to deal with the fears of the Thessalonians who came to fear that the Lord had already taken His Church from the earth, and they had been left here by themselves–but, the apostle Paul never told them to stop watching for the Lord, but instead he outlined how the Lord would remove His Church[in the twinkling of an eye] just after the dead in Christ had risen to meet the Lord ‘in the air’, shortly before anti-Christ was revealed to the world–so, perhaps the Lord, Himself, wished us all to continually be on the look-out for the Rapture of His Church, not wishing us to ever truly believe that He wouldn’t return at any given time, and the reason might be to help us stay on our toes, when it comes to obeying His commands to us–

    –if we truly knew He wouldn’t be calling us all home any time soon, that might lend itself to our becoming far too complacent and lazy at actively following in His footsteps/obeying His commands–that would make our not being able to tell exactly when He would call us home as the Body of Christ, a help-meet along side the fact that our heavenly Father does not allow us to know when or how we will die–together, both would help serve to teach us the fact that, we are expected to be actively following Jesus in our daily lives–all the time–because, we truly do NOT know when ‘the end’ for us, as individuals, and/or as the Body of Christ, will actually come–only our heavenly Father knows, and He’s kept it a secret for a very good reason–

    –you truly do make a very good case for your idea on this, but sometimes there are some loose ends still left, that need to be tied in–if you can find none, then terrific–maybe I’m not seeing things the right way, and need to understand them far more from your point of view on this–we’ll see–thank you!:)

    Like

  2. I was almost taken in by the Pre-Wrath view after hearing Marvin Rosenthal expound his Pre-Wrath position when he spoke at our church as a representative of the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry in the 80’s. He was HIRED by wealthy industrialist Robert Van Kampen to promote and popularize this view. If it wasn’t for Kampen’s millions to promote this false teaching most today would never have heard of it. You can read about how this teaching developed and spread at:

    http://www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Van_Kampen.html

    I have been looking for Jesus to return for his church all of my life, and I find my expectation of the any moment return of Jesus for His Church coming increasingly under attack. In view of the increasing wickedness of our society, and the coming tyranny of World Government, I find the “blessed hope” that Jesus left the church very comforting, when there is not much comfort to be found anywhere else.

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    Many Christians actually seem to be looking forward to being persecuted, hunted down, imprisoned, and/or tortured for being a Christian. They think that somehow they are going to outwit the antichrist and his forces and survive the tribulation. With the tracking technology that is available today this will be IMPOSSIBLE.

    Fortunately, Jesus has left us with a better promise and an enduring hope. He told us to watch and pray, yes; but does that mean that works is going to enter into the rapture equation? I tell you on the grounds of God’s grace, NO! I am not going to start looking for the anti-christ! What kind of blessed hope is that? I am afraid that due to the many teachings of pre-wrath, partial rapture, post tribulation rapture, and other false teachings many true Christians are not experiencing the inner peace and joy of the Lord that God wants us to have as we await His return.

    These three verses tell us that Christ could return at any moment, and we should not leave them out when we take a position on the Rapture.

    Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

    I am not going to abandon the doctrine of immanency. If I am to be persecuted, imprisoned, and tortured for my faith, I will deal with it when it happens. God does not give grace for tomorrow’s problems today. Until then I will keep TRUSTING JESUS, and looking for His any moment return. May 2013 be the year!!

    Like

  3. Like most prophetic schemes these days from those who take Scripture seriously and literally, this one is a mixture of truth and error. And as is true of pretty much all such speculation, this is also mostly a house of cards. One serious flaw here, and truth be told there are many, and it all comes apart at the seams. Just wait and you’ll see what I mean.

    Charlie

    Like

  4. Thanks for the comments. You know Christie, I agree with what you are saying. Even our understanding of End-Times has been bit-by-bit over the centuries, and every generation seems to think they are the last. I can’t but help think that this was intended. It seems that even some within the first generation thought they were the last. It’s good to be expectant regarding the Blessed Hope.

    When I first wrote Red Moon Rising I said that I was unconvinced either way regarding the doctrine of immanency. Over the past eight years or so I have shifted against it. Yet I still recognize its value, which may be a strange thing to say. The most important thing for me is not to change anyone’s mind, or to label it a “false doctrine” and attack those who believe it (perhaps I came across that way in my post, which was not my intention). No, my primary goal is to get people to recognize that they need to “Watch!” just as Jesus said. What do we watch for? Well, I believe we watch for the birthpangs that Jesus referred to, which mirror the first four Seals of Revelation. (We watch for signs that point to Jesus’ return, just as we watch for buds on a tree that point forward to summer). I also believe we watch for the three things that must occur prior to the Day of the Lord: 1. The blood red moon and darkened sun of Joel 2:31 (fulfilled at the 6th Seal); 2. The revealing of the Antichrist (which I predict will be the discovery of his corpse sometime before the 6th Seal); and 3. the appearance of Elijah according to Malachi 4:5-6 (this I believe will involve repentance and purification for the remnant church on a global scale and probably not the literal return of Elijah, but rather the release of the “spirit and power of Elijah). Yes I know this last one is very mystical and not easy to watch for, but that’s what I think.

    Byron, I know you are a faithful watcher, as are most pre-tribbers. That’s the irony of “immanency”: Perpetually watching and spiritually “on guard” at all times, but watching only for Jesus and not for any signs. There’s really no “down side” to this, so I can’t argue against it too forcefully. I believe that as the signs continue to happen our sense of expectancy will continue to increase, which will help to motivate us and draw us closer to Jesus, and closer to each other.

    Like

  5. You are right on track with most of your end-time scenario, but you do not yet understand the “great tribulation”. The “great tribulation” is not seven-years long. It is “shortened” , by Jesus, to about 30-days in length. It begins in Israel, ends in Israel, and is confined to Israel. It is the “time of Jacob’s trouble”.when God brings Gog-Magog against Israel as His vengeance upon the land of Israel and the people of Israel as told to us in Luke 21:22-24 “For these are the days of vengeance…..for there will be great tribulation in the land and wrath upon this people.” God’s great tribulation of Israel will be shortened to save the flesh of the Jewish elect remnant for the last 1,260 days of the 70th Week. God’s great tribulation of Israel will end at the mid-point of the 70th Week, and is immediately followed by the rapture of His church as told to us in Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days……” If you would like to know more, please feel free to e-mail me

    Like

  6. Continuing on: God’s shortened “great tribulation” of Israel will begin when Jesus opens the Sixth Seal. The great earthquake described at the beginning of the Sixth Seal is the very same great earthquake described in Ezekiel 38:19 epicentered in Israel. God tells us in Ezekiel 38:18-20 that “at the same time when Gog comes against the land of Israel…..there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.” Then God says in Ezekiel 39:8 “Surely it is coming, and it shall be done, says the Lord God. “This is THE DAY of which i have spoken.” And what day is that, you ask ? The answer is in Revelation 6:17 “for the great Day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand ?”

    Like

  7. Bruce, I’m with you on the connection between Ezekiel 38:19 and Revelation 6:17. Other than that, not so much… Here’s a question for you: Revelation 11:11-14 tells us that three and a half days after the Two Witnesses are killed… the sixth Trumpet judgment (the second Woe) is ENDED. Where is this on your proposed timeline in relation to the 70th Week?

    Like

  8. God’s two witnesses testify during the first 1,260 days of the 70th Week, and then they are killed by the anti-Christ after he receives the power and great authority from Satan before he continues for the last 42 months of the 70th Week. The Church is raptured during the events of the Sixth Seal just before the two witnesses are killed. The great multitude in heaven is the raptured Church who has experienced no part of the great tribulation of Israel. The events of the great tribulation of Israel are described beginning in Luke 21:20 and are given to us as the signs to watch for happening in Israel just before our pending rapture. Luke 21:28 “Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

    Like

  9. Just one more point. The parable of the 10 virgins states “Five were wise, and five were foolish.” When the bridegroom (Jesus) tarried, 5 of the virgins got tired of watching and foolishly slumbered, slept, and let their lamps go out for lack of oil. I want to be watching, waiting, with my lamp full of oil, trimmed, and burning. Even so Come, Lord Jesus! 🙂

    Like

  10. “I want to be watching, waiting, with my lamp full of oil, trimmed, and burning.”

    Yeah, me too. But at the same time, I don’t want to miss any signs that God has prepared me to see. And told be beforehand to look out for.
    ~~~

    Like

  11. You are absolutely right !! Those of us who are truly born-again “watch always” for the signs we are promised to see before we are raptured. We all know that we won’t have to wait much longer before we begin to see the signs in Israel of our nearing rapture. Watch for what happens in Israel. Remember, Jesus was a Hebrew therefore God is also a Hebrew. Jesus was sent by God to the Hebrew people in Israel and He resurrected and ascended to heaven from Israel. When He returns for our rapture He will be returning to Israel, and then he will send His angels to the four winds to gather together His elect Church/bride to meet Him in the air over Jerusalem. When jesus returns at His second coming He will be returning to Jerusalem.

    Like

  12. Here’s what longtime American bible teacher Ken Raggio has written about the time of the Rapture, as part of his website article ‘The Third Temple, when will it be built?’ –

    The Church of Jesus Christ will witness the Antichrist’s stand in the Third Temple, according to 2 Thessalonians 2. That event will precipitate the final three-and-a-half years of Daniel’s Seventieth Week. Why do I say that? Look at those verses from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    NOTICE CAREFULLY what is in those verses. Paul is addressing these subjects:

    1. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2. Our gathering together unto Him (The Rapture and First Resurrection).
    3. Called here, “the Day of Christ.”

    Paul says “THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME…” until

    1. there comes a Great Falling Away
    2. the Man of Sin is revealed, the Son of Perdition
    3. he opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God
    4. he, as God, sits in the THIRD TEMPLE, showing himself that he is God.

    What do we learn from these statements?

    1. The Rapture will NOT take place until there is a Great Falling Away.
    2. The Rapture will NOT take place until the Man of Sin (Antichrist) is revealed.
    3. The Rapture will NOT take place until the Antichrist sits in the Third Temple.
    4. The Church WILL SEE the Antichrist.
    5. The Church WILL SEE the Third Temple built.
    6. The Church WILL SEE the Abomination of Desolation (see Daniel 9:27).

    Like

  13. Thanks G.K. I am very familiar with the Pre-Wrath View of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. I refer to it at the end of my page at http://www.redmoonrising.com/prewrathview.htm This Pre-Wrath view could be correct, but I feel that it creates too many problems in the timeline and a better view is possible. Here is what I write:

    The Pre-Wrath view teaches that the revealing of the Antichrist will take place at the midpoint of the 70th Week when the Man of Sin will be indwelt by Satan himself.

    This is another misconception. Some prophecy scholars teach that Israel and the world will not know the true identity of the Antichrist until he takes his seat as God in the rebuilt Temple at the midpoint of the 70th Week. At this time, they teach, the body of the Antichrist will be “indwelt” by a demonic or satanic “spirit” that comes out of the Abyss.

    First of all, it is not “spirit possession” that causes the world to wonder and be astonished as shown in both Revelation 13:3 and 17:8. The Antichrist was possessed by Satan from the very beginning, as he is the literal son of Satan, so he does not need to be “spirit possessed” again to fulfill his role. It is not spirit possession that causes the world to wonder, but resurrection! Spirit possession is an invisible event, whereas the resurrection of an ancient corpse would truly cause the world to be awestruck, especially if this corpse is first found and put on display as a significant archaeological discovery. But again, this does not take place at the midpoint of the 70th Week, but prior to the beginning of the 70th Week Covenant.

    Secondly, the revealing of the Antichrist is an event that should not be connected with the mid-point of the 70th Week, which sometimes happens from a misreading of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,

    “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

    Some prophecy scholars teach that the Antichrist will be revealed when he takes his seat as God in the Temple. Yet Paul is not saying that. He is simply saying that the Antichrist will be revealed before the Day of the Lord, after which he will then go on to take his seat as God in the Temple. The Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, so the revealing of the Antichrist must take place before the sixth Seal. The resurrection of the Antichrist then takes place at the fifth Trumpet, after which the 70th Week Covenant is initiated, and then the Antichrist breaks the covenant at the midpoint of the 70th Week when he takes his seat as God in the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem.

    Some scholars argue that the revealing, the resurrection, and the triumph of the Antichrist all take place at the same time at the midpoint, but I believe that they are all separate events occurring at separate times. The revealing of the Antichrist will merely be the discovery of the corpse of the Antichrist, which will soon happen just as Jesus predicted, in a secret chamber out in the desert (Matt. 24:26). When Jesus comes back He will be revealed from Heaven as the Living God who once was dead, and every eye will see Him, whereas the Antichrist will be revealed as the corpse of a dead god, who once was alive, and only a select few will gather to honor and observe him. He will be viewed as a corpse, but eventually that corpse will come alive again, to the world’s amazed astonishment!

    Like

  14. Pete, when/if they find Osiris/Asshur I will switch to your point of view. Until then I will be looking for a hole in the sky, not a hole in the ground with a corpse in it. 😉

    Best,
    BGS

    P.S. You indicate above that “only a select few” will see Osiris/Asshur. That is typical of the elite, always keeping secrets. -So do you think if they DO in fact find Osiris/Asshur/AnMerkar that they will tell anyone? Or will it be like the secrets of Roswell? Thanks!

    Like

  15. The ‘hole in the sky’ is described for us in Revelation 6:14 “Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up,……….” This is the ‘hole in the sky’ through which we are raptured during the events of the Sixth Seal at the mid-point of the 70th Week which runs concurrent with the ‘covenant with many’.

    Like

  16. Sequence of Events before Daniel’s 70th Week

    Assumptions:

    * A resurrection event pattern was established at Yeshua’s first coming, namely:

    1. Solar eclipse – He died during a solar eclipse (Mk 15:33, 34; Mt 27:45, 46; Lk 23:44-46)

    2. Followed by resurrection on a Feast day (Yeshua resurrected on His Sabbath [Mk 2:28; Mt 12:8; Lk 6:5] during the Feast of Unleavened Bread)

    3. Followed by a local earthquake (Mt 27:51-53, Rev 11:11, 13)

    ————————–
    *Joel 2:31 integrated with Rev 6:12-17 gives a sequence of events that portray Paul’s description of the “dead in Christ” resurrection of 1Th 4:16.
    ————————–

    The sequence beginning now –

    *Palestinian war (Ps 83) before 3/20/2015

    *1. Sun turned into darkness (Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12) – 3/20/2015 (Total Solar Eclipse)
    http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=2015&month=9&country=34
    http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEdecade/SEdecade2011.html
    http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2015-march-20

    *2. Believers “in Yeshua” resurrection (1Th 4:16b) – Yom Teruah, 9/14 or 15/2015
    http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=2015&month=9&country=34

    *Yahweh brings Gog “against My land” (Ez 38:16b, 18)

    *3. Earthquake in Israel (Ez 38:19; Rev 6:12)

    *Moon into blood (Joel 2:31; Rev 6:12) – Sukkot, 9/28/2015 (Total Lunar Eclipse)
    http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/monthly.html?year=2015&month=9&country=34
    http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/LEdecade/LEdecade2011.html
    http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/lunar/2015-september-28

    *Global shaking (Ez 38:20b; Rev 6:14b) – after 2015 Sukkot

    *Day of the Lord begins (Joel 2:31; Is 2:12, 19, 21; Ez 38:22; Rev 6:15-17)

    *Yahweh defeats/kills Gog (Ez 39:1-7, 11)

    *7 year Peace treaty signed (Dan 9:27a)

    *7 Year Tribulation period (aka Daniel’s 70th week) begins (Dan 9:24, 27; Mt 24:9; Rev 6:17; Rev 11:3)

    Hank

    Like

  17. Hi, as far as Luke 21, in context, it is in a line of warnings by Jesus to believers to watch and endure to the end.

    25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

    The Parable of the Fig Tree

    29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

    The Importance of Watching

    34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

    Note vs 26, 31: So YOU ALSO, or CHRISTIANS , when these things begin to happen, lift up your heads FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH. What things? The sun moon and stars phenomena.

    I would love an answer please someone:

    A

    Revelation 16: the Lord is coming like a thief at Armageddon. Seems to me to prive that the rpature is at the end, but before the super heavy wrath, which may be how we may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things-or the things which start to take place as the sun, moon and stars stuff takes place. Jesus said when you see the stars fall, the sun darken, and the moon red, then look up, that is when we escape.

    B
    2 thess 1 says, about being counted worthy:

    that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    here its pretty clear that the Lord will give us rest when he is revealed in flaming fire, not secret, and revealed in fire is at the end.

    C

    Paul says that the rapture takes place on the day of the Lord, whatever the day of the Lord is, and that day cannot take place unless you have seen the Antichrist in the temple. No pre trib-rapture there. case closed.

    D

    Isaiah 26 and 27 present a clear case for what will take place:

    ISAIAH 26:THE DEAD SHALL RISE. THE PEOPLE OF GOD WAIT UNTIL THE WRATH OF GOD PASSES BY. THE LORD IS COMING
    TO JUDGE THE PEOPLE OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR SINS.
    ISAIAH 27 A TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE LORD WILL GATHER UP “ISRAELITES” ONE BY ONE FROM ALL OVER THE
    GLOBE.

    What do the scriptures actually say? The dead in christ shall rise first, then we who are still alive and are left will rise and join the Lord in the air. Here, the dead rise at the end but before the wrath, as the Lord is coming to judge, a trumpet sound as the rapture takes place.

    so either there are two resurrections, and two raptures, or one. I believe there will be only one, which is why Jesus warned. he who endures to the end will be saved. the end means just that, when the trumpet, the last trumpet sounds, at the end of most things but before the huge wrath starts.

    E

    The two witnesses are resurrected at the last and 7th trump, which is at the end of the last 3 1/2 years. Rev 10:7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. Paul clearly states that the mystery of God is the rapture, which takes place at the last and 7th trumpet. 1rst Cor 15:

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    John is saying that the mystery of God takes place at the last trumpet, and Paul says the mystery of God which takes place at a trumpet is the rapture. The last trumpet is at the end of the 7 trumps and thus means that we will all be here until the end, or until Jesus Christ appears in the sky and calls for all of us to come to him: before huge wrath, but not before the Antichrist.

    Alan Brooks

    Like

  18. PRETRIB RAPTURE STEALTH !

    Many evangelicals believe that Christ will “rapture” them to heaven years before the second coming and (most importantly) well BEFORE Antichrist and his “tribulation.” But Acts 2:34, 35 reveal that Jesus is at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His earthly foes at the second coming. And Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! They were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
    Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
    Many don’t know that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into an idolized separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which evangelical scholars overwhelmingly rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” [“gathering”] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice” for more on this.
    Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture,” “The Real Manuel Lacunza,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” and “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).

    [The preceding item found on the net. Any reactions?]

    Like

  19. IDY the texts you quote are out of context:

    In context they are all about watching for the signs of the second coming. Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not

    watch for what? The disciples asked Jesus what will be the signs of your coming?

    A the antichrist invading Jerusalem:

    LUKE 21:
    20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies,(Q) you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.(R) 22 For this is the time of punishment(S) in fulfillment(T) of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled(U) on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    B sun moon and stars darkened

    25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.(V) 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.(W) 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man(X) coming in a cloud(Y) with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”(Z)

    29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God(AA) is near.

    32 “Truly I tell you, this generation(AB) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.(AC)

    When you see all these things LOOK UP FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH!!!!!

    thats the rapture at the 7th trump and the last trump!

    28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.’

    So AFTER THE ANTICHRiST INVADES< AFTER THE SUN MOON AND STARS FALL then

    look up!

    its simple..he who endures to the END will be saved.

    Like

  20. Evangelicals Use Occult Deception !

    Heard of the coming blood moons? Is the pretrib rapture symbolized by anything in the heavens?
    Hal Lindsey, influenced by occult astrology, asserts on p. 124 in “The Late Great Planet Earth” that the famous Sphinx in Egypt has the head of a “woman” – even though encyclopedias say it’s the head of a “man”! Hal’s plagiarism on that page of a 19th century British theologian is his acceptance of the occult Virgo-to-Leo theory – a “Christian” zodiac arbitrarily starting with Virgo (Virgin Mary) and ending with Leo (Christ returning as “Lion,” Rev. 5:5).
    Those who swallow this guesswork often see Ursa Minor (part of Cancer which precedes Leo) as a heavenly “symbol” of a pretrib rapture!
    Pretribs also insist on separating the “church” from “Israel” – but when you aren’t looking (or thinking) they blithely “prove” pretrib by the Jewish feasts in Leviticus, the stages of a Hebrew wedding (Google “Pretrib Rapture: A Staged Event”), and the one “taken” and the other “left” in “Jewish” Matthew 24!
    Amazingly, Jewishness (and even anti-Jewishness) has been uncovered even in pretrib dispensationalism’s 19th century foundation (Google “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism”)!
    The current “blood moons” craze (promoted by lunar persons including rock musician Scottie Clarke and John Hagee) is tied to – you guessed it – the same Jewish feast days.
    Yes, there’s something colored red in the future of the church, but I don’t have moons in mind. What will really turn red will be the collective faces of many when it finally dawns on them that their any-moment fly-away was nothing more than an end time hoax!

    Like

  21. i find that pre trib rapture people have their heads in the sand and fail to address certain scriptures. they pretend as though they are not in the bible. Rev 16/ Jesus says at Armageddon, I come like a thief. I think that paul says the rapture takes place at the last trumpet. your position would say that there is a last trumpet 7 years before the first 6. And the dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive will rise in the air. If you study revelation and the two witnesses, they are killed, then the last trumpet sounds where the “mystery of god” takes place, and they are raised from the dead. they are killed inly after 3 1/2 years of the antichrist ruling, thus disproving the pre trib rapture. paul says I show you a mystery, the dead shall rise and the we shall rise. Also if you just read Matt 24, you will see that jesus is answering the question, what is the signs of your return? All through Matt 24 and 25 jesus says, Watch for you do not know on what day YOUr LOrD will come!

    if you are honest, Matt 24 jesus continues to say watch for the same second coming as the whole bible speaks about: the Lord appears. (as in his glorious appearing) the trumpet sounds and the rapture takes place. Just read these verses and tell me that Jesus here is also talking about his coming with the words watch!
    The Coming of the Son of Man

    MATTHEW 24:

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    The Parable of the Fig Tree

    32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

    No One Knows the Day or Hour

    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only.

    (((((Here your point is blown away, the day nor hour is talking about what jesus had already predicted: the sun moon and stars darkened, and the lord comes back at the last trumpet))))))))

    37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
    41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming.

    (((the above can only be the rapture-only after the tribulation)))))

    43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

    (((( HERE AGAIN, the thief and not being ready is in CONTEXT WITH THE SECOND COMING AFTER THE TRIBULATION—and fits in perfectly with rev 16 where Jesus comes back AT ARMAGEDDON!!!!!! ))))))))

    The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant

    45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’[g] 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    ONCE again, a text which pre tribbers use is IN CONTEXT WITH AFTER THE TRIBULATION!!!!!! But they like to pretzelize the word…hopscotch verses in and out of context to meet their personal wishes!!!!!

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s